Rob Kall: And this is a big part of Ishmael, and I have to say again as we wrap up this conversation: Ishmael is an amazing book that will make you think of the world in a very different way, and make you think of yourself and civilization as well. Daniel, I wonder -- it has to be that there are people who have attacked Ishmael and the ideas in it. Who have been your attackers?
Daniel Quinn: They haven't really brought themselves to my attention.
Rob Kall: Really!
Daniel Quinn: Really, yeah. (laughs) Some people sort of tentatively said, "Oh, you're idealizing aboriginal peoples," which is nonsense. I make a point of saying that they're absolutely no different from us, they're no more noble, or anything like that. They're just exactly like us, they just happen to have a way of life that works for them. That's about as far as anyone has gone. The book is used in hundreds of classrooms in all sorts of subjects: archaeology, anthropology, history, religion, psychology - on, and on, and on. Teachers really love the book, but scholars have not accepted it into their library yet. I'm not a scientist, I'm not a scholar, and so I don't come wearing the right clothes to visit their library.
Rob Kall: You've certainly brought a light into this world that has made a difference that I think will continue to make a difference. I believe Ishmael was one of the most important books of the last century. In wrapping up, I just want to thank you. You've done something really important, and given us all a gift of a way to think; and now this new idea, The Invisibility of Success, it's a powerful concept. Basically what you're saying is, you have to see how something is successful in order to deal with it, I think.
Daniel Quinn: Yes. I want to say that my conversation with you has been great, and as I told you, I was a little nervous in the beginning, since I'd never talked about this before; but I managed to plow right ahead, and I'm very pleased by the outcome.
Rob Kall: All right.